Can the unfairness in Virginia track be changed?
03/05/2007 10:19:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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I have two issues I think are most unfair in Virginia track and field meets that I would like to stir debate on that could perhaps lead to change:

1. Order of events is unfair to middle distance runners and violates a basic rule in track and field in that two neighboring events (500 and 1000) are back to back.

2. The maximum number of events allowed by a single competitor should be the same.

My arugument: In indoor in particular, the 500 should not be immediately before the 1000. This means that 500/1000 meter runners can never do their two top events. Also, it is very unlikely that the 1600/1000 meter double can be done well. At the state meet, there is only a 40 minute rest period between the two. Most runners do not attempt to do both and end up choosing one, or they run both and do not come close to their potential in the 1000. This could easily be remedied by changing the order of events. I raised this issue last year on this forum and received a number of good suggestions for a better order of events.

The second issue, number of events, needs to be addressed and changed. The maximum of events should be the same for all, be it three or four events. I agree with another poster that field events can be more taxing on the body than running events. Additionally, the current rule favors teams with sprinters and jumpers.

Discussion?
I have two issues I think are most unfair in Virginia track and field meets that I would like to stir debate on that could perhaps lead to change:

1. Order of events is unfair to middle distance runners and violates a basic rule in track and field in that two neighboring events (500 and 1000) are back to back.

2. The maximum number of events allowed by a single competitor should be the same.

My arugument: In indoor in particular, the 500 should not be immediately before the 1000. This means that 500/1000 meter runners can never do their two top events. Also, it is very unlikely that the 1600/1000 meter double can be done well. At the state meet, there is only a 40 minute rest period between the two. Most runners do not attempt to do both and end up choosing one, or they run both and do not come close to their potential in the 1000. This could easily be remedied by changing the order of events. I raised this issue last year on this forum and received a number of good suggestions for a better order of events.

The second issue, number of events, needs to be addressed and changed. The maximum of events should be the same for all, be it three or four events. I agree with another poster that field events can be more taxing on the body than running events. Additionally, the current rule favors teams with sprinters and jumpers.

Discussion?
03/05/2007 11:45:52 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
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In the VPL and VISAA they allow the runners to do the marathon triple. 1600, 800 (1000) and 3200. To make it even tougher, the league meets are small and there is only 1 1/2 to 2 hours from the 1600 event to the 3200. That makes it a very tough triple.

If the VPL and VISAA can do it, why not the public schools, especially since there is a bigger time gap between the first and last.
In the VPL and VISAA they allow the runners to do the marathon triple. 1600, 800 (1000) and 3200. To make it even tougher, the league meets are small and there is only 1 1/2 to 2 hours from the 1600 event to the 3200. That makes it a very tough triple.

If the VPL and VISAA can do it, why not the public schools, especially since there is a bigger time gap between the first and last.
03/05/2007 12:52:02 PM
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the 500 + 1000 double can be done. In VISAA the same guy who won the 500, won the 1000 30 minutes later. you just gotta suck it up and do it.
the 500 + 1000 double can be done. In VISAA the same guy who won the 500, won the 1000 30 minutes later. you just gotta suck it up and do it.
03/05/2007 1:03:21 PM
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The same can be said of guys who run the 300 and 500. There is only the 1000 between them, only about 45 minutes rest. You really only run into this problem at meets with small fields, like states. When you get to big invitationals, the rest time is significantly more.

It would be nice to re-visit the order, but without VHSL\'s concurrence and the coaches, it is a dead issue.

My real issue is allowing times run on outdoor tracks count for seeding purposes at states. Take a look at the 500\'s top 2 heats and research the runners times. You will see 5 guys were seeded based on outdoor track times which were approximately 2 seconds faster than the indoor times put up. The bust is not against the runners but the process. Times on outdoor tracks will be faster than on indoor...these are \"false times\" and the practice of allowing these times to dictate seeding preference should be disallowed.
The same can be said of guys who run the 300 and 500. There is only the 1000 between them, only about 45 minutes rest. You really only run into this problem at meets with small fields, like states. When you get to big invitationals, the rest time is significantly more.

It would be nice to re-visit the order, but without VHSL\'s concurrence and the coaches, it is a dead issue.

My real issue is allowing times run on outdoor tracks count for seeding purposes at states. Take a look at the 500\'s top 2 heats and research the runners times. You will see 5 guys were seeded based on outdoor track times which were approximately 2 seconds faster than the indoor times put up. The bust is not against the runners but the process. Times on outdoor tracks will be faster than on indoor...these are \"false times\" and the practice of allowing these times to dictate seeding preference should be disallowed.
03/05/2007 1:30:25 PM
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I was referring to AAA State. Perhaps the 500/1000 double can be done at less competitive meets, but no one is doing it in AAA. It\'s not a matter of being tough or not, it\'s a matter of not being able to produce your best time which is what it takes in AAA. It\'s not just States where these athletes are affected; it\'s the same problem at districts and regionals.

I think it is worth comparing private schools and neighboring jurisdictions. Maryland does not have the same bias against middle distance runners, and it allows 3200 meter runners to run the full amount of events.
I was referring to AAA State. Perhaps the 500/1000 double can be done at less competitive meets, but no one is doing it in AAA. It\'s not a matter of being tough or not, it\'s a matter of not being able to produce your best time which is what it takes in AAA. It\'s not just States where these athletes are affected; it\'s the same problem at districts and regionals.

I think it is worth comparing private schools and neighboring jurisdictions. Maryland does not have the same bias against middle distance runners, and it allows 3200 meter runners to run the full amount of events.
03/05/2007 9:20:52 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 414
The last two posters should look at Kristen Wolfe the 2005 1000 Meter AAA State Champion from James River. In 2005 she ran the 500, 1000, 300 triple in the Dominion District and the Central Regional Meet. In 2006
she ran the 1600, 500, 1000 triple in the Dominion
District Meet. In 2007 she did not run indoor.

Always be carefull for what you ask for.

If you change the rules someone will be told to run an impossible triple or quad.
The last two posters should look at Kristen Wolfe the 2005 1000 Meter AAA State Champion from James River. In 2005 she ran the 500, 1000, 300 triple in the Dominion District and the Central Regional Meet. In 2006
she ran the 1600, 500, 1000 triple in the Dominion
District Meet. In 2007 she did not run indoor.

Always be carefull for what you ask for.

If you change the rules someone will be told to run an impossible triple or quad.
03/05/2007 10:02:28 PM
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I am aware of Kristin Wolfe\'s triple. Those are her specialties. Why do those events have to be back to back? If they were better spread out, as I am suggesting, it would not be such a terrible triple. However in her case, wasn\'t that district meet held at a terrible track? That is probably the biggest problem.

I am not necessarily advocating increasing the running events to four, just pointing out the inequity of running vs. field events.
I am aware of Kristin Wolfe\'s triple. Those are her specialties. Why do those events have to be back to back? If they were better spread out, as I am suggesting, it would not be such a terrible triple. However in her case, wasn\'t that district meet held at a terrible track? That is probably the biggest problem.

I am not necessarily advocating increasing the running events to four, just pointing out the inequity of running vs. field events.
03/05/2007 10:05:01 PM
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I think my post was misunderstood. I was not braging about how tough it was, mearly pointing out if one association does not see a problem allowing it (3 events inc. the 3200m), even with the time constraints, why would the Public assoc. have issue when the time issue is a little looser.

If the runner feels game enough, let them run...
I think my post was misunderstood. I was not braging about how tough it was, mearly pointing out if one association does not see a problem allowing it (3 events inc. the 3200m), even with the time constraints, why would the Public assoc. have issue when the time issue is a little looser.

If the runner feels game enough, let them run...
03/05/2007 10:52:19 PM
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No matter what order you put the events in it is going to be unfair to somebody. Think about it. A 1600 runner can double down to the 1000, or up to the 3200. Likewise, a 500 runner can double up to the 1000 or down the the 300. No matter how you arrange it somebody gets screwed
No matter what order you put the events in it is going to be unfair to somebody. Think about it. A 1600 runner can double down to the 1000, or up to the 3200. Likewise, a 500 runner can double up to the 1000 or down the the 300. No matter how you arrange it somebody gets screwed
03/05/2007 10:53:22 PM
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I agree with this last post in that if a runner is up to running a triple including the 3200, why not let them run it. But coaches should not make them do it if they are not up to it.
I agree with this last post in that if a runner is up to running a triple including the 3200, why not let them run it. But coaches should not make them do it if they are not up to it.
03/05/2007 10:55:31 PM
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I do that there are several ways to arrange a better order of events.
I do that there are several ways to arrange a better order of events.
03/05/2007 11:14:51 PM
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in my experience...it\'s either a put up or shut up situation...there are situations where my coach has asked me to go 1600,500...and pr in both...it happend once, then he asked me to do it again...and i wasn\'t up for it...it wasn\'t the order\'s fault...i wasn\'t ready for it ... that\'s all...if people are looking for an advantage for themselves... it\'s silly...how about train yourself to have a quicker recovery? haha i mean seriously...
in my experience...it\'s either a put up or shut up situation...there are situations where my coach has asked me to go 1600,500...and pr in both...it happend once, then he asked me to do it again...and i wasn\'t up for it...it wasn\'t the order\'s fault...i wasn\'t ready for it ... that\'s all...if people are looking for an advantage for themselves... it\'s silly...how about train yourself to have a quicker recovery? haha i mean seriously...
03/05/2007 11:28:16 PM
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I question how much the James River coach knew what he was during. I was at both meets and the girl was hurting. As far I was concerned he was putting her heath at risk. I could see if she was just running for points and didn\'t have any competion. But running against midlo girls last year she didn\'t win any races and the next week he still wanted her to double. She only ran 1000 meters at states and didn\'t exactly have a good race. In 2005 midlo was not near as deep in talent. James River has a different coach for each season. I wouldn\'t be surprised if that played a part in her decision not to run this indoor season.
I question how much the James River coach knew what he was during. I was at both meets and the girl was hurting. As far I was concerned he was putting her heath at risk. I could see if she was just running for points and didn\'t have any competion. But running against midlo girls last year she didn\'t win any races and the next week he still wanted her to double. She only ran 1000 meters at states and didn\'t exactly have a good race. In 2005 midlo was not near as deep in talent. James River has a different coach for each season. I wouldn\'t be surprised if that played a part in her decision not to run this indoor season.
03/05/2007 11:45:57 PM
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Honestly there should be no limit on events. Such rules were made to keep the Jim Thorpes of the world from dominating a meet and are similar to limitting a basketball player to 30 pts because Michael Jordan was single handedly causing too much damage. They end up hurting smaller teams with less depth. There are plenty of hurdlers who would have no trouble running all the hurdle and sprint events. The AAA rule that doesnt allow distance runners in the 3200 to do 3 events is utterly retarded, what\'s next, rules against playing both ways in football?
Honestly there should be no limit on events. Such rules were made to keep the Jim Thorpes of the world from dominating a meet and are similar to limitting a basketball player to 30 pts because Michael Jordan was single handedly causing too much damage. They end up hurting smaller teams with less depth. There are plenty of hurdlers who would have no trouble running all the hurdle and sprint events. The AAA rule that doesnt allow distance runners in the 3200 to do 3 events is utterly retarded, what\'s next, rules against playing both ways in football?
03/06/2007 12:08:12 AM
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\"As far I was concerned he was putting her heath at risk.\" What health risk? Tired?

At worst she came away , after a recovery period no different than a hard workout, in better shape.
\"As far I was concerned he was putting her heath at risk.\" What health risk? Tired?

At worst she came away , after a recovery period no different than a hard workout, in better shape.
03/06/2007 12:28:57 AM
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hey mudder have you ever ran at ashe center? The torque placed on knees and ankles due to the tight turns are unreal. Also if you really think someone that can run a 4:16 can\'t recover faster after a 4:21 really does not know what he talking about.
hey mudder have you ever ran at ashe center? The torque placed on knees and ankles due to the tight turns are unreal. Also if you really think someone that can run a 4:16 can\'t recover faster after a 4:21 really does not know what he talking about.
03/06/2007 10:09:23 AM
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Ha! If you only knew.

So, running two races of a middle distance, distance varity places torque on her knees and ankles and places her health at risk...care to ask the guys that? How about the sprinters? I have never heard of someone \"blowing a knee\" out in a middle distance race, in a turn on the track. You know, now that I think of it, colloeges have ran there in the past...nope no health risk. What happens when she has torque on her knee and ankles? Is it safe for her to run?

Also, quantify the hugh difference between 4:16 and 4:21. If you really knew...the difference is Anerobic (sp?) not Aerobic. After 5 minutes there is no difference in regards to fatigue. The runner is no less tired walking up to the line for the next race. The runner saved nothing, by going out slow and finishing fast and only running 5 seconds slower. That 5 seconds could easily be explained as a natural variable in a runners race...call it a \"bad day\", but he is still tired. A 4:21 is not easy to run.

Just because she was \"tired\" does not mean her Health was at risk. If anything she was running slower, because she was tired, thus running too slow to run the speeds required to come close to placing \"torque\" on her knees and ankles.

Please do not be offended, for I am not throwing insults at you, only tring to figure out the science behind her health risk, that running two events placed her into a \"higher risk\" category.
Ha! If you only knew.

So, running two races of a middle distance, distance varity places torque on her knees and ankles and places her health at risk...care to ask the guys that? How about the sprinters? I have never heard of someone \"blowing a knee\" out in a middle distance race, in a turn on the track. You know, now that I think of it, colloeges have ran there in the past...nope no health risk. What happens when she has torque on her knee and ankles? Is it safe for her to run?

Also, quantify the hugh difference between 4:16 and 4:21. If you really knew...the difference is Anerobic (sp?) not Aerobic. After 5 minutes there is no difference in regards to fatigue. The runner is no less tired walking up to the line for the next race. The runner saved nothing, by going out slow and finishing fast and only running 5 seconds slower. That 5 seconds could easily be explained as a natural variable in a runners race...call it a \"bad day\", but he is still tired. A 4:21 is not easy to run.

Just because she was \"tired\" does not mean her Health was at risk. If anything she was running slower, because she was tired, thus running too slow to run the speeds required to come close to placing \"torque\" on her knees and ankles.

Please do not be offended, for I am not throwing insults at you, only tring to figure out the science behind her health risk, that running two events placed her into a \"higher risk\" category.
03/06/2007 10:16:26 AM
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I have to agree with cali55 that indoor \"tracks\" such as Arther Ashe are big risks for some runners, and we have had similar expereinces. Perhaps it is more a problem that these are high school age girls, going through growing pains, that makes them very susceptible to injury.
I have to agree with cali55 that indoor \"tracks\" such as Arther Ashe are big risks for some runners, and we have had similar expereinces. Perhaps it is more a problem that these are high school age girls, going through growing pains, that makes them very susceptible to injury.
03/07/2007 10:09:35 AM
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The 500, 1000 double is definitely possible. David Lynch, did it for us at our District meet and scored a lot of points. He only had about 30 minutes rest. I did it aswell just not successfully. No matter what the order is doubles and triples are going to be difficult. That is simply the nature of High School track. I see no need for a change in the order of events. The proximity of certain events is what adds strategy from the coaches standpoint, and personally I think its fun to try to pull off a tough double or triple.
The 500, 1000 double is definitely possible. David Lynch, did it for us at our District meet and scored a lot of points. He only had about 30 minutes rest. I did it aswell just not successfully. No matter what the order is doubles and triples are going to be difficult. That is simply the nature of High School track. I see no need for a change in the order of events. The proximity of certain events is what adds strategy from the coaches standpoint, and personally I think its fun to try to pull off a tough double or triple.
03/07/2007 10:12:36 AM
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By the way, our Districts and Regionals are at the Arthur Ashe center and I do agree that running a lot of events there puts a lot stress on your ankles and knees. Plus it\'s completely unfair to our Region not having one final chance to hit good seed times for states.
By the way, our Districts and Regionals are at the Arthur Ashe center and I do agree that running a lot of events there puts a lot stress on your ankles and knees. Plus it\'s completely unfair to our Region not having one final chance to hit good seed times for states.

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