16 versus 24 at state meet
05/17/2018 11:59:58 AM
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While reading another thread, I kept reading about how 24 runners at state meet is akin to an all comers meet form what I hope is a vocal minority.. 2018 Track and field season roughly 36,000 students in Florida competed according to FHSAA website 2008 roughly 28,000 students competed during season. 2002 roughly 22,000 students. Track remains the largest participation sport in Florida and elsewhere It would make sense to have a larger representation at a state event if the numbers are going up and up. If this were football or hoops, an extra sectional round would make money and make sense... but this is not football Kudos to Ed, kudos to the advisory committee and kudos any directors who voted to approve the increase to 24. In the this age of recruiting and school choice, it gave many kids hope. In the absence of a sectional meet ( cost prohibitive), I hope 24 is a permanent fixture, especially in light of how many scored. I'll bet if elite athletes were posed the question " Did 24 take away from your meet experience, you would get very few affirmatives". Ill bet if many of the coaches who got to bring kids that would not have qualified otherwise had been asked, you would have received the same response.
While reading another thread, I kept reading about how 24 runners at state meet is akin to an all comers meet form what I hope is a vocal minority..

2018 Track and field season roughly 36,000 students in Florida competed according to FHSAA website

2008 roughly 28,000 students competed during season.

2002 roughly 22,000 students.

Track remains the largest participation sport in Florida and elsewhere

It would make sense to have a larger representation at a state event if the numbers are going up and up. If this were football or hoops, an extra sectional round would make money and make sense... but this is not football

Kudos to Ed, kudos to the advisory committee and kudos any directors who voted to approve the increase to 24. In the this age of recruiting and school choice, it gave many kids hope. In the absence of a sectional meet ( cost prohibitive), I hope 24 is a permanent fixture, especially in light of how many scored. I'll bet if elite athletes were posed the question " Did 24 take away from your meet experience, you would get very few affirmatives". Ill bet if many of the coaches who got to bring kids that would not have qualified otherwise had been asked, you would have received the same response.
05/17/2018 12:39:16 PM
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[quote=mbecker]While reading another thread, I kept reading about how 24 runners at state meet is akin to an all comers meet form what I hope is a vocal minority.. 2018 Track and field season roughly 36,000 students in Florida competed according to FHSAA website 2008 roughly 28,000 students competed during season. 2002 roughly 22,000 students. Track remains the largest participation sport in Florida and elsewhere It would make sense to have a larger representation at a state event if the numbers are going up and up. If this were football or hoops, an extra sectional round would make money and make sense... but this is not football Kudos to Ed, kudos to the advisory committee and kudos any directors who voted to approve the increase to 24. In the this age of recruiting and school choice, it gave many kids hope. In the absence of a sectional meet ( cost prohibitive), I hope 24 is a permanent fixture, especially in light of how many scored. I'll bet if elite athletes were posed the question " Did 24 take away from your meet experience, you would get very few affirmatives". Ill bet if many of the coaches who got to bring kids that would not have qualified otherwise had been asked, you would have received the same response.[/quote] @mbecker I'm all for insuring the top 16 in each event qualify for the State meet. If that means we have to go to 24 to increase the likelihood of getting the top 16, then I count me in....which is what happened this year.
mbecker wrote:
While reading another thread, I kept reading about how 24 runners at state meet is akin to an all comers meet form what I hope is a vocal minority..

2018 Track and field season roughly 36,000 students in Florida competed according to FHSAA website

2008 roughly 28,000 students competed during season.

2002 roughly 22,000 students.

Track remains the largest participation sport in Florida and elsewhere

It would make sense to have a larger representation at a state event if the numbers are going up and up. If this were football or hoops, an extra sectional round would make money and make sense... but this is not football

Kudos to Ed, kudos to the advisory committee and kudos any directors who voted to approve the increase to 24. In the this age of recruiting and school choice, it gave many kids hope. In the absence of a sectional meet ( cost prohibitive), I hope 24 is a permanent fixture, especially in light of how many scored. I'll bet if elite athletes were posed the question " Did 24 take away from your meet experience, you would get very few affirmatives". Ill bet if many of the coaches who got to bring kids that would not have qualified otherwise had been asked, you would have received the same response.


@mbecker I'm all for insuring the top 16 in each event qualify for the State meet. If that means we have to go to 24 to increase the likelihood of getting the top 16, then I count me in....which is what happened this year.
05/17/2018 4:31:09 PM
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[quote=mbecker]Track remains the largest participation sport in Florida and elsewhere[/quote] @mbecker I completely agree in this regard. It was the whole reason for adding consolation races to multiple invitationals/championships down here in Miami. Increased participation is how our sport will continue to thrive. In the same light for cross country, that's the premise for adding 10 runners at cross country district, adding a 5th qualifying team to Region for Districts with 10+ schools, and also why I helped in institute JV divisions in Miami which barely existed a dozen years ago. I'm completely for large teams and large participation, however... [quote=mbecker]It would make sense to have a larger representation at a state event if the numbers are going up and up.[/quote] Yes and no. If you wanted to increase participation I would be inclined to say we need to make more classifications, not inflate the size of the current structure; some other sports have twice as many classes as we do. There obviously needs to be a balance of course. [quote=mbecker]"Did 24 take away from your meet experience, you would get very few affirmatives". Ill bet if many of the coaches who got to bring kids that would not have qualified otherwise had been asked, you would have received the same response.[/quote] @mbecker It's unfair to question those who benefited from the rule change. I would contend it makes more sense to question those coaches who have witnessed and experienced all of the different types of state meet options that have been utilized and/or postulated to come up with the best solution. I mean, I love track and everything about it. But to watch 16 straight heats of the 4x800m relay for 3.5-4 hours? Ughh! The state meet in it's current format, for me, is just too much. I know a few others who agree. Unfortunately I cannot speak to last year's set up with 4 classes over two days with only 16 per event as I was not there.
mbecker wrote:
Track remains the largest participation sport in Florida and elsewhere

@mbecker I completely agree in this regard. It was the whole reason for adding consolation races to multiple invitationals/championships down here in Miami. Increased participation is how our sport will continue to thrive.

In the same light for cross country, that's the premise for adding 10 runners at cross country district, adding a 5th qualifying team to Region for Districts with 10+ schools, and also why I helped in institute JV divisions in Miami which barely existed a dozen years ago. I'm completely for large teams and large participation, however...

mbecker wrote:
It would make sense to have a larger representation at a state event if the numbers are going up and up.

Yes and no. If you wanted to increase participation I would be inclined to say we need to make more classifications, not inflate the size of the current structure; some other sports have twice as many classes as we do. There obviously needs to be a balance of course.

mbecker wrote:
"Did 24 take away from your meet experience, you would get very few affirmatives". Ill bet if many of the coaches who got to bring kids that would not have qualified otherwise had been asked, you would have received the same response.
@mbecker It's unfair to question those who benefited from the rule change. I would contend it makes more sense to question those coaches who have witnessed and experienced all of the different types of state meet options that have been utilized and/or postulated to come up with the best solution.

I mean, I love track and everything about it. But to watch 16 straight heats of the 4x800m relay for 3.5-4 hours? Ughh! The state meet in it's current format, for me, is just too much. I know a few others who agree. Unfortunately I cannot speak to last year's set up with 4 classes over two days with only 16 per event as I was not there.
05/17/2018 5:04:25 PM
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Due to the increased participation, I would be interested to hear how coaches would feel about (1) going from 4 to 6 regions, and then (2) going to a 3 auto / 6 at large format? Just for discussion...not advocating
Due to the increased participation, I would be interested to hear how coaches would feel about (1) going from 4 to 6 regions, and then (2) going to a
3 auto / 6 at large format? Just for discussion...not advocating
05/17/2018 6:09:54 PM
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[quote=scottrod]Due to the increased participation, I would be interested to hear how coaches would feel about (1) going from 4 to 6 regions, and then (2) going to a 3 auto / 4 at large format? Just for discussion...not advocating[/quote] @scottrod Four classes, six regions, 3 auto-qualify per region, and 6 at-large overall per event? That's a novel and nifty idea.
scottrod wrote:
Due to the increased participation, I would be interested to hear how coaches would feel about (1) going from 4 to 6 regions, and then (2) going to a 3 auto / 4 at large format? Just for discussion...not advocating

@scottrod Four classes, six regions, 3 auto-qualify per region, and 6 at-large overall per event? That's a novel and nifty idea.
05/18/2018 9:05:56 AM
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Heads up I am doing just what everyone asked. Seeing what would have changed if we went to 3 Auto and 4 At Large. Be a minute before my data results come out....but one thing I already noticed that is ridiculous and something I predicted could happen. 1A Region 2 Girls 200m Dash----The entire Final from the Region made the State meet. That is just silly to me. all 8 finalists Boys also did it...same region same event Also Girls & Boys 400m same thing same region Also Girls 100m Hurdles & 300m Hurdles same thing [b] 12....yes 12teams in the Girls 4x400m from this region 13 should have made it... [/b] Why did they run Regionals for all 8 in the finals to race at State again? More to come
Heads up I am doing just what everyone asked. Seeing what would have changed if we went to 3 Auto and 4 At Large. Be a minute before my data results come out....but one thing I already noticed that is ridiculous and something I predicted could happen.

1A Region 2 Girls 200m Dash----The entire Final from the Region made the State meet. That is just silly to me. all 8 finalists

Boys also did it...same region same event

Also Girls & Boys 400m same thing same region

Also Girls 100m Hurdles & 300m Hurdles same thing

12....yes 12teams in the Girls 4x400m from this region 13 should have made it...

Why did they run Regionals for all 8 in the finals to race at State again?

More to come
05/18/2018 9:24:18 AM
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@Raycer131 I LOVE being in 1AR2!
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I LOVE being in 1AR2!
05/18/2018 9:30:30 AM
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@1514492828 FYI 10 boy 4x400m made it 11 could have... and I am still finishing up..insane
@1514492828
FYI 10 boy 4x400m made it 11 could have... and I am still finishing up..insane
05/18/2018 9:32:14 AM
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@Raycer131 And on the girls side it is almost entirely underclassmen . That is why I was so happy with the At-Large bids.In the 400m 5 from region 2 placed in the top 8 at State. I do agree that a 3/4 would still get the best to the State meet and keep it at 16 qualifiers . Thus keeping the State meet to 2 heats. And (I guess) 1 heat of the 4x8 . And No 4x4 prelims.:-]
@Raycer131 And on the girls side it is almost entirely underclassmen . That is why I was so happy with the At-Large bids.In the 400m 5 from region 2 placed in the top 8 at State. I do agree that a 3/4 would still get the best to the State meet and keep it at 16 qualifiers . Thus keeping the State meet to 2 heats. And (I guess) 1 heat of the 4x8 . And No 4x4 prelims.
05/18/2018 9:50:44 AM
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@plyoman This is just 1A Region 2 where over 8 Qualified in an event (Entire Final 8) 200m Boys and Girls (Entire Final 8)100m H Girls (Entire Final 8)300m H Girls (Entire Final 8)400m Boys and Girls (Entire Final 8)4x100m Boys (12) 4x400m Boys and Girls (11) 4x800m Boys and Girls (10) 800m Boys 800m (9 each) 1600m Boys and Girls (7 of each) 3200m Boys and Girls (7) 800m Girls There has to be a better way... What was the point of this meet again? I truly feel we would be able to get the 16 fastest to State by keeping things consistent and having At Large bids from District to Region and Region to State...but going to the 3 Auto and 4 At Large... It would also do a better job to ensure the 16 best make it to that Regional meet.
@plyoman

This is just 1A Region 2 where over 8 Qualified in an event

(Entire Final 8) 200m Boys and Girls
(Entire Final 8)100m H Girls
(Entire Final 8)300m H Girls
(Entire Final 8)400m Boys and Girls
(Entire Final 8)4x100m Boys
(12) 4x400m Boys and Girls
(11) 4x800m Boys and Girls
(10) 800m Boys 800m
(9 each) 1600m Boys and Girls

(7 of each) 3200m Boys and Girls
(7) 800m Girls

There has to be a better way...
What was the point of this meet again?

I truly feel we would be able to get the 16 fastest to State by keeping things consistent and having At Large bids from District to Region and Region to State...but going to the 3 Auto and 4 At Large... It would also do a better job to ensure the 16 best make it to that Regional meet.
05/18/2018 9:54:53 AM
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Does anyone want to talk about the tracks that are measured and/or marked incorrectly?
Does anyone want to talk about the tracks that are measured and/or marked incorrectly?
05/18/2018 10:01:50 AM
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@LFCSumner3 That and the people that have twisted tapes and think its ok to measure that way ... (no way that mathematically it would change the distance at all) #sarcasm
@LFCSumner3
That and the people that have twisted tapes and think its ok to measure that way ... (no way that mathematically it would change the distance at all) #sarcasm
05/18/2018 10:22:19 AM
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[quote=Raycer131]Heads up I am doing just what everyone asked. Seeing what would have changed if we went to 3 Auto and 4 At Large. Be a minute before my data results come out....but one thing I already noticed that is ridiculous and something I predicted could happen. 1A Region 2 Girls 200m Dash----The entire Final from the Region made the State meet. That is just silly to me. all 8 finalists Boys also did it...same region same event Also Girls & Boys 400m same thing same region Also Girls 100m Hurdles & 300m Hurdles same thing 12....yes 12teams in the Girls 4x400m from this region 13 should have made it... Why did they run Regionals for all 8 in the finals to race at State again? More to come[/quote] @Raycer131 2A Region 1 girls 100m Finals all made it too. You ask "Why did they run the Region Finals to race at state again?" Because places 5-8 did not know if they were going to make it until all Regions were completed. 2A Region 4 girls 100m Finals also had all 8 qualify.
Raycer131 wrote:
Heads up I am doing just what everyone asked. Seeing what would have changed if we went to 3 Auto and 4 At Large. Be a minute before my data results come out....but one thing I already noticed that is ridiculous and something I predicted could happen.

1A Region 2 Girls 200m Dash----The entire Final from the Region made the State meet. That is just silly to me. all 8 finalists

Boys also did it...same region same event

Also Girls & Boys 400m same thing same region

Also Girls 100m Hurdles & 300m Hurdles same thing

12....yes 12teams in the Girls 4x400m from this region 13 should have made it...

Why did they run Regionals for all 8 in the finals to race at State again?

More to come


@Raycer131 2A Region 1 girls 100m Finals all made it too. You ask "Why did they run the Region Finals to race at state again?" Because places 5-8 did not know if they were going to make it until all Regions were completed. 2A Region 4 girls 100m Finals also had all 8 qualify.
05/18/2018 12:19:58 PM
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@multijumps My point is why re-race the same 7-12 teams at State, it rendered the Regional result null and void. I can get behind a couple of them moving on and if it is so fast even 4 at large, but not an entire Region.
@multijumps

My point is why re-race the same 7-12 teams at State, it rendered the Regional result null and void. I can get behind a couple of them moving on and if it is so fast even 4 at large, but not an entire Region.
05/18/2018 12:34:24 PM
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@LFCSumner3 hahahahaha, What are you saying ?
@LFCSumner3 hahahahaha, What are you saying ?
05/18/2018 12:36:45 PM
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[quote=Raycer131]@multijumps My point is why re-race the same 7-12 teams at State, it rendered the Regional result null and void. I can get behind a couple of them moving on and if it is so fast even 4 at large, but not an entire Region.[/quote] @Raycer131 If you have 4 boys in the same district who run the 1600m in 4:05, 4:07, 4:09,, then they will also race against each other at the Region & State levels. That seems like a they will have several null & void races leading up to the Big Dance. I do not think there is a way around it given the current qualifying methods. In my narrow view, the only way to move on to a state meet without having these null & void competitions, is to set a qualifying mark to achieve or take the top 16 or 24 marks (achieved by a certain date) in each event. These methods of qualifying for the state meet have many potential problems (as mentioned in previous posts).
Raycer131 wrote:
@multijumps

My point is why re-race the same 7-12 teams at State, it rendered the Regional result null and void. I can get behind a couple of them moving on and if it is so fast even 4 at large, but not an entire Region.


@Raycer131 If you have 4 boys in the same district who run the 1600m in 4:05, 4:07, 4:09,, then they will also race against each other at the Region & State levels. That seems like a they will have several null & void races leading up to the Big Dance. I do not think there is a way around it given the current qualifying methods. In my narrow view, the only way to move on to a state meet without having these null & void competitions, is to set a qualifying mark to achieve or take the top 16 or 24 marks (achieved by a certain date) in each event. These methods of qualifying for the state meet have many potential problems (as mentioned in previous posts).
05/18/2018 12:44:21 PM
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@multijumps I hear what you are saying and appreciate your view, but isn't that part of it being a series or a playoff if you will? Some good athletes will not make it. This is the State Championship not the State Participation meet. Show up the day you need to show up, many years the Olympic and World Champions are not the person that ran the fastest or jumped the highest. They showed up the day and time it mattered. The 3 weeks or so it matters should be District, Region, State. Show up get qualified and advance, 24 is just too many. I do realize that it will still be possible for 7 Athletes from one Region to advance in any one given event. But that would be an outlier not the norm, and when it did happen that covers those so called "Regions of Death".
@multijumps

I hear what you are saying and appreciate your view, but isn't that part of it being a series or a playoff if you will? Some good athletes will not make it. This is the State Championship not the State Participation meet. Show up the day you need to show up, many years the Olympic and World Champions are not the person that ran the fastest or jumped the highest. They showed up the day and time it mattered. The 3 weeks or so it matters should be District, Region, State. Show up get qualified and advance, 24 is just too many. I do realize that it will still be possible for 7 Athletes from one Region to advance in any one given event. But that would be an outlier not the norm, and when it did happen that covers those so called "Regions of Death".
05/18/2018 1:05:14 PM
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[quote=Raycer131] @Raycer131 I agree that being able to qualify through the State Series "rounds" is an important aspect. In the past, many top 8 athletes were left behind because they were in a tough Region. FHSAA finally found a way to include top athletes who were in tough Regions. FHSAA had to cast a wide net to insure of those top 16 got in. When a wide net is cast to catch sharks, a couple of guppies will sometimes get scooped up too. This year, there were many 20th-24th places that were so far from placing in the top 8, that it made several feel the State meet to have that "participation/All Comers" feel. Too many guppies. Top 6 from each Region would have had more guppies and less sharks. Is there a solution? What would you propose to minimize catching guppies while insuring the sharks get through?
Raycer131 wrote:


@Raycer131 I agree that being able to qualify through the State Series "rounds" is an important aspect. In the past, many top 8 athletes were left behind because they were in a tough Region. FHSAA finally found a way to include top athletes who were in tough Regions. FHSAA had to cast a wide net to insure of those top 16 got in. When a wide net is cast to catch sharks, a couple of guppies will sometimes get scooped up too. This year, there were many 20th-24th places that were so far from placing in the top 8, that it made several feel the State meet to have that "participation/All Comers" feel. Too many guppies. Top 6 from each Region would have had more guppies and less sharks. Is there a solution? What would you propose to minimize catching guppies while insuring the sharks get through?
05/18/2018 1:51:24 PM
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I just ran some number for the 4A Boys track events (individual and relays). Of the 11 races, 70% of the athletes/relay teams who finished in the bottom four places were in fact automatic qualifiers who placed in the top four at their region. So the competitors who were not close to the top eight would have still been there at the state meet had the format stayed top four only with no at-larges.
I just ran some number for the 4A Boys track events (individual and relays). Of the 11 races, 70% of the athletes/relay teams who finished in the bottom four places were in fact automatic qualifiers who placed in the top four at their region.

So the competitors who were not close to the top eight would have still been there at the state meet had the format stayed top four only with no at-larges.
05/18/2018 2:06:43 PM
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@multijumps I stand by the fact that if we took a consistent 3 Auto from District 4 At Large to advance to Regionals...here we lose some of the guppies and add some Sharks that were left at District... Then Do the exact same thing from Region to State, yes some Sharks will be left out...but only the Sharks that did worse than the 4 Sharks that do make it...I can live with that scenario. Yes 1 or 2 guppies will slide in still in that 3rd place of a slower Regional... but few and far between
@multijumps
I stand by the fact that if we took a consistent 3 Auto from District 4 At Large to advance to Regionals...here we lose some of the guppies and add some Sharks that were left at District...
Then Do the exact same thing from Region to State, yes some Sharks will be left out...but only the Sharks that did worse than the 4 Sharks that do make it...I can live with that scenario. Yes 1 or 2 guppies will slide in still in that 3rd place of a slower Regional... but few and far between

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