Furman course short...change stats???
09/18/2013 9:42:06 AM
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With the furman course turning out to be short i think that the stats should be changed, last year the UGA invite had to change it to a 3 mile and i think furman should change the length in the stats. Just my opinion. Unfortunate that the course was short ive been to the race before and it is a great race!
With the furman course turning out to be short i think that the stats should be changed, last year the UGA invite had to change it to a 3 mile and i think furman should change the length in the stats. Just my opinion. Unfortunate that the course was short ive been to the race before and it is a great race!
09/18/2013 9:49:14 AM
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@mindoverpain Who said the course was short? I haven't seen that reported anywhere.
@mindoverpain

Who said the course was short? I haven't seen that reported anywhere.
09/18/2013 10:39:18 AM
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Yeah it was probably too short. The results were way too fast. No disrespect to anyone who ran well there but c'mon: Furman had freshman run sub-24 and reilly freidman ran 4:55 pace for 5k (which he has only done twice in his career for 3200 on the track).
Yeah it was probably too short. The results were way too fast. No disrespect to anyone who ran well there but c'mon: Furman had freshman run sub-24 and reilly freidman ran 4:55 pace for 5k (which he has only done twice in his career for 3200 on the track).
09/18/2013 10:44:13 AM
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@hcdawgs1 to cary on with this no disrespect to Friedman, but if you look at his past races running 15:57 2 weeks before at berry, and dropping 40 seconds to run a 15:17 is kind of ridiculous. Im sure he will get there eventually, but he is just not in that kind of shape.
@hcdawgs1 to cary on with this no disrespect to Friedman, but if you look at his past races running 15:57 2 weeks before at berry, and dropping 40 seconds to run a 15:17 is kind of ridiculous. Im sure he will get there eventually, but he is just not in that kind of shape.
09/18/2013 10:54:30 AM
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@mindoverpain Well, maybe, but at Berry it was 80 degrees and very humid when he ran. Also, he ran alone, nobody was near him after the mile. At Furman, he was in a pack of 3 pushing hard in 65 degree weather with low humidity on a faster course than Berry. I bet he would run a similar time on the new Bob Blastow course.
@mindoverpain

Well, maybe, but at Berry it was 80 degrees and very humid when he ran. Also, he ran alone, nobody was near him after the mile. At Furman, he was in a pack of 3 pushing hard in 65 degree weather with low humidity on a faster course than Berry. I bet he would run a similar time on the new Bob Blastow course.
09/18/2013 11:04:37 AM
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Friedman was 5 seconds behind Wyatt Maxey from Providence (NC). Maxey ran 15:10 at McAlpine on August 24th and 9:18 last spring. Given the perfect weather and having someone to run with for the first time this season, 15:17 didn't seem impossible when I saw it. That said, I don't know if they changed the course from previous layouts, nor the course measurement.
Friedman was 5 seconds behind Wyatt Maxey from Providence (NC). Maxey ran 15:10 at McAlpine on August 24th and 9:18 last spring. Given the perfect weather and having someone to run with for the first time this season, 15:17 didn't seem impossible when I saw it. That said, I don't know if they changed the course from previous layouts, nor the course measurement.
09/18/2013 11:15:56 AM
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@hcdawgs1 So far as the college men's results, [url=http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/251074-Fast-100-XC-Recruit-Rankings/article/22217-NCAA-XC-Class-Recruiting-Class-Countdown-4-Furman-University-Men]Furman's #4 Recruiting Class[/url] may have had a little something to do with it.
@hcdawgs1
So far as the college men's results, Furman's #4 Recruiting Class may have had a little something to do with it.
09/18/2013 11:16:31 AM
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Furman coach says the course was not short...he says perfect footing (manicured golf course) and ideal weather (70's) was main reason for great times.
Furman coach says the course was not short...he says perfect footing (manicured golf course) and ideal weather (70's) was main reason for great times.
09/18/2013 11:18:04 AM
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When has anyone ever put Furman and McAlpine in the same category of speed? What does the aggregate say? Like Jason has been alluding to, the proof is in the masses and not the outliers. Could Reilly have run that fast? Yes. Could everyone run as fast as they did? Unsure as I haven't crunched the numbers. Do you know what is so nice about all this short course talk? No one has had to mention Clinton Farms or McIntosh Nature Preserve even once!
When has anyone ever put Furman and McAlpine in the same category of speed?

What does the aggregate say? Like Jason has been alluding to, the proof is in the masses and not the outliers. Could Reilly have run that fast? Yes.

Could everyone run as fast as they did? Unsure as I haven't crunched the numbers.

Do you know what is so nice about all this short course talk? No one has had to mention Clinton Farms or McIntosh Nature Preserve even once!
09/18/2013 11:33:24 AM
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@MaristXCcoach I wasn't trying to say McAlpine and Furman are in the same category of speed. What I was trying to do is put Reilly's time in context by referencing Maxey's time on a well known course. A 15:10 at McAlpine, especially on August 24th is a really good time. Assuming Maxey didn't have an off day at Furman, for Reilly to be within 5 seconds of a 15:10 guy is a solid performance no matter the distance of the course.
@MaristXCcoach I wasn't trying to say McAlpine and Furman are in the same category of speed. What I was trying to do is put Reilly's time in context by referencing Maxey's time on a well known course. A 15:10 at McAlpine, especially on August 24th is a really good time. Assuming Maxey didn't have an off day at Furman, for Reilly to be within 5 seconds of a 15:10 guy is a solid performance no matter the distance of the course.
09/18/2013 11:36:58 AM
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Was the 5k on the same course as the college races (a 2k loop)? If so, it is a new course that is much faster than the previous course there.
Was the 5k on the same course as the college races (a 2k loop)? If so, it is a new course that is much faster than the previous course there.
09/18/2013 11:42:13 AM
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From the Furman coach: [i]"For this meet to be in its first year, I was very pleased with the turnout both in terms of numbers as well as quality of teams," said Furman head coach Robert Gary. "Well over half of our Furman athletes were running this distance for the first time in their lives, so I was very pleased with the final results. In particular, I was very proud of how willing each team was to go out and attack [b]a very difficult course[/b]. I know we are not the favorites to win the Southern Conference title, but that still remains our goal." [/i] Assuming the 8k course is similar in difficulty to the 5k course, he and I have differing opinions of what is meant by "very difficult". The freshman who went sub-24 for 8k ran 5k on a track at a 4:40/mile pace a few months ago, and 8k at 4:48 pace on a "very difficult course" Saturday.
From the Furman coach:

"For this meet to be in its first year, I was very pleased with the turnout both in terms of numbers as well as quality of teams," said Furman head coach Robert Gary. "Well over half of our Furman athletes were running this distance for the first time in their lives, so I was very pleased with the final results. In particular, I was very proud of how willing each team was to go out and attack a very difficult course. I know we are not the favorites to win the Southern Conference title, but that still remains our goal."

Assuming the 8k course is similar in difficulty to the 5k course, he and I have differing opinions of what is meant by "very difficult". The freshman who went sub-24 for 8k ran 5k on a track at a 4:40/mile pace a few months ago, and 8k at 4:48 pace on a "very difficult course" Saturday.
09/18/2013 11:52:47 AM
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@tlgcc1 Courses were the same except college course extended the loop (to the right in these maps). Don't know what the course looked like in prior years. [url=http://www.furmanpaladins.com/sports/c-track/FUXC_Course_HS.pdf]High School XC Course Map[/url] [url=http://www.furmanpaladins.com/sports/c-track/FUXC_Course_College.pdf]College XC Course Map[/url]
@tlgcc1
Courses were the same except college course extended the loop (to the right in these maps). Don't know what the course looked like in prior years.

High School XC Course Map
College XC Course Map
09/18/2013 12:07:54 PM
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@jim62 I am certainly aware of how good furmans freshman class is, and Reilly Friedman has become one of Georgia's most elite high school runners. I just think the times are too fast to be accounted for only by good conditions
@jim62 I am certainly aware of how good furmans freshman class is, and Reilly Friedman has become one of Georgia's most elite high school runners. I just think the times are too fast to be accounted for only by good conditions
09/18/2013 12:21:49 PM
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[quote=jim62]@tlgcc1 Courses were the same except college course extended the loop (to the right in these maps). Don't know what the course looked like in prior years. High School XC Course Map College XC Course Map[/quote] @jim62 Thanks for posting the maps. These are new layouts. The old course had some harsh turns and required you to decide if you would run the narrow grass strip or the cart path in spots. It appears that the hills on the back side of the course are no longer part of the layout. What you now have is a nice design that could not be configured to be any faster. Long gradual down hill that you get to run 3 times. Similar to Clinton Farms in maximizing the terrain to create as fast a course as possible. I don't doubt Riley ran a legit 5K however the course had much to do with the time. Run the course backwards and I beleive you would see a 1 minute difference in the times.
jim62 wrote:
@tlgcc1
Courses were the same except college course extended the loop (to the right in these maps). Don't know what the course looked like in prior years.

High School XC Course Map
College XC Course Map


@jim62

Thanks for posting the maps. These are new layouts. The old course had some harsh turns and required you to decide if you would run the narrow grass strip or the cart path in spots. It appears that the hills on the back side of the course are no longer part of the layout. What you now have is a nice design that could not be configured to be any faster. Long gradual down hill that you get to run 3 times. Similar to Clinton Farms in maximizing the terrain to create as fast a course as possible.

I don't doubt Riley ran a legit 5K however the course had much to do with the time. Run the course backwards and I beleive you would see a 1 minute difference in the times.
09/18/2013 12:22:19 PM
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@tlgcc1 It is a new course I believe used since 2010, there are maps posted on a billboard near the finish line of the old courses and the new courses along with course records, etc. Previous course record for new course was set in 2010 for boys. This is not the same course that Girma ran in 2006. The course may well be short, but conditions were great and the course feels like it should run fast. Let somebody actually crunch the numbers on it before judging it short.
@tlgcc1
It is a new course I believe used since 2010, there are maps posted on a billboard near the finish line of the old courses and the new courses along with course records, etc. Previous course record for new course was set in 2010 for boys. This is not the same course that Girma ran in 2006. The course may well be short, but conditions were great and the course feels like it should run fast. Let somebody actually crunch the numbers on it before judging it short.
09/18/2013 12:59:42 PM
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Well.. a quick glance at the results of the boys and girls teams from Georgia who raced here certainly confirms a big jump in time performance across the board but not to the point to where they look completely beyond belief. Historically, there are some races/courses that have an asterisk by them in terms of judging performance. Like the St George's marathon in Utah with the 2,600 net elevation drop. You might use it to qualify for Boston, but you wouldn't count on running that fast on any other course. Maybe this is one of those courses? I'd say a +20 seconds rating would put these performances on par with what one might expect on a typical fast course cross country layout we are familiar with. Not saying the course is short, just saying times these athletes turned in are skewed enough to the fast side that suggest they are likely not consistently repeatable. I could be wrong.
Well.. a quick glance at the results of the boys and girls teams from Georgia who raced here certainly confirms a big jump in time performance across the board but not to the point to where they look completely beyond belief. Historically, there are some races/courses that have an asterisk by them in terms of judging performance. Like the St George's marathon in Utah with the 2,600 net elevation drop. You might use it to qualify for Boston, but you wouldn't count on running that fast on any other course. Maybe this is one of those courses? I'd say a +20 seconds rating would put these performances on par with what one might expect on a typical fast course cross country layout we are familiar with. Not saying the course is short, just saying times these athletes turned in are skewed enough to the fast side that suggest they are likely not consistently repeatable. I could be wrong.
09/18/2013 1:26:03 PM
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The head coach at Furman (Robert Gary) is sharp and a knowledgeable distance coach. He said he wheeled the course and came up about 5 feet short early in the week. He then said he wheeled it again the day before the race and was over about 10 feet. He told me he was satisfied with the 5k label for the race.
The head coach at Furman (Robert Gary) is sharp and a knowledgeable distance coach. He said he wheeled the course and came up about 5 feet short early in the week. He then said he wheeled it again the day before the race and was over about 10 feet. He told me he was satisfied with the 5k label for the race.
09/18/2013 2:22:37 PM
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At this rate Boling Park/Warpath will be seen as a slow course! Seriously, we had perfect weather and conditions for mid-September here in Georgia and Boling Park is about as flat and one can get. Is Freidman 20sec faster than Poteet and 30sec faster than Thurston? This would put Mills at sub 15 at Furman given Berry comparisons. Can anyone do an aggregate analysis for us? Dataholic...dataholic? Where are you? We should just race Coach Wood each week at a different venue to sort this stuff out! Andy Christie, can you host meets 7 weeks in a row?
At this rate Boling Park/Warpath will be seen as a slow course! Seriously, we had perfect weather and conditions for mid-September here in Georgia and Boling Park is about as flat and one can get. Is Freidman 20sec faster than Poteet and 30sec faster than Thurston? This would put Mills at sub 15 at Furman given Berry comparisons. Can anyone do an aggregate analysis for us? Dataholic...dataholic? Where are you?

We should just race Coach Wood each week at a different venue to sort this stuff out! Andy Christie, can you host meets 7 weeks in a row?
09/18/2013 2:34:51 PM
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@MaristXCcoach Furman is obviously a faster course than Boling Park, whether because it is short, or better surface, or more gradual turns or whatever, it is very fast. As for Mills running sub 15 at Furman, probably he would. What do you think he would have run on the old or even new Asics course, or Westover?
@MaristXCcoach

Furman is obviously a faster course than Boling Park, whether because it is short, or better surface, or more gradual turns or whatever, it is very fast. As for Mills running sub 15 at Furman, probably he would. What do you think he would have run on the old or even new Asics course, or Westover?

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